Latest topics
» 2019 Event List update
Yesterday at 8:57 am by zorteus

» Old pre-mix.
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm by kerabo

» Browser problems
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:10 pm by zorteus

» shows old and new
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:01 pm by zorteus

» Spare spring nut
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:23 pm by mike Sayer

» 8e 197 g/box & clutch help
Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:14 pm by Mark9

» AMC piston rings wanted
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:08 pm by piston 197

» cruiser 80 clutch adjusting screw ?
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:37 am by kerabo

» Speedo cable
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:18 am by FBKev


8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Go down

8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:48 pm

Hello, I hope you donít mind a James Captain question on a Francis Barnett site!, unfortunately I canít seem to post on the James site, it appears broken, Iím guessing that the engine/clutch/gear box on the FB is very similar to the James, I have a 1955 Captain K7, 3 speed box, it rides well but when in gear on tickover the bike canít be pushed backwards, it doesnít make any odd noises , it just feels locked if you try to paddle the bike backwards, is anybody able to confirm this as normal?, or as being a problem with my bike ?, thanks Mark.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Clutch

Post  kerabo on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:58 pm

Sounds very much like clutch drag. Does it kick when you select a gear.
Drain the oil and put some ATF in the clutch and then try it.
Ken
kerabo
kerabo

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2008-02-11
Age : 68
Location : Falcon 87..1936 Cruiser 39. Falcon 81 Green Lane bitsa. Sunbeam S8. Honda Deuville.

Back to top Go down

No reverse !

Post  piston 197 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Kick start ratchet is fouling, you possibly have not got the kickstart fully forward with the spring pressure, or the ratchet pawl is stuck ?
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Clutch

Post  kerabo on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Sounds very much like clutch drag. Does it kick when you select a gear.
Drain the oil and put some ATF in the clutch and then try it.
Ken
kerabo
kerabo

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2008-02-11
Age : 68
Location : Falcon 87..1936 Cruiser 39. Falcon 81 Green Lane bitsa. Sunbeam S8. Honda Deuville.

Back to top Go down

Clutch

Post  kerabo on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:01 pm

piston 197 wrote:Kick start ratchet is fouling, you possibly have not got the kickstart fully forward with the spring pressure, or the ratchet pawl is stuck ?
JH

Good thinking John. That didn't enter my mind
Ken
kerabo
kerabo

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2008-02-11
Age : 68
Location : Falcon 87..1936 Cruiser 39. Falcon 81 Green Lane bitsa. Sunbeam S8. Honda Deuville.

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:33 pm

Thanks for the replies gents, I did notice that the kickstart fwd stop bolt is wound out quite a way, the kickstart is snug against it so hopefully the spring is ok, Iíll try adjusting the stop in when I get home and see if that helps, the previous owner said heíd fitted a new lay shaft so I hope he put everything back together correctly, strangely he forgot to say that the bike couldnít be moved backwards whilst in gear, clutch in, funny that!, if allowing the kickstart to sit further forward by adjusting the stop doesnít do it am I into a big job to sort it?, (Iím clueless on pre 1970ís bikes at present!).

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

gearbox

Post  piston 197 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:42 pm

The gearbox is the simplest thing in the world, do not be afraid to take it to bits, you can do everything with the engine still in the frame, there are only 2 sliding gears, it will be the kickstart ratchet pawl trying to engage, maybe a stuck pawl or take the kickstart off and make sure the kickstart shaft is fully clockwise in case it is engaging when wheeled backwards
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:54 pm

Ignore that bit above about the fwd stop, I just got home had a look and the bolt Iím talking about isnít a fwd stop at all, funny how the memory plays tricks.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

stop

Post  piston 197 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:16 pm

Yes guessing you are referring to the clutch adjuster knob ? the kick start should be cranked and miss this, if you have the correct k/start shaft
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:48 pm

The kickstart appears to be bent inwards so is hitting the adjuster, Saturday is rain all day so ideal for getting into the garage and sorting stuff out, I picked it up on Sunday and went away with work on Monday so I havenít been able to do anything with it yet, Iíll have a look at the kickstart and see what I can do, I just went out for a quick ride on it and itís running but not very well, holding back, Iíll strip and clean the carb, set the timing, check the points etc etc

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Kickstart

Post  piston 197 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:53 pm

Take the kick start off the shaft, rotate the shaft fully clockwise and re-position the kickstart so it does not come to rest against the adjuster when fully clockwise , should cure your problems unless the pawl is stuck internally
JH


Last edited by piston 197 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:18 am

Thanks very much JH you were correct, I removed the kickstart rotated the shaft clockwise and refitted it, problem solved, thanks again.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Glad to help

Post  piston 197 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:25 am

It is usually something simple that gets overlooked, like all problems you will get better advice from someone who knows than any book or computer, never be afraid to ask.
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:45 am

Onto trying to get it running properly now, I went for a ride last night and ended up pushing it 2 miles Home, the joys of motorcycling!, I had ridden for about ten miles and it was ok but holding back, I pulled over to tweak the mixture screw but it stopped as I pulled up and wouldnít restart, I pulled the carb apart and the jets looked ok, set the needle to 1.95 inches, wouldnít restart, this morning I had a look at the points, they are bent over to one side so not making proper contact, anyway I cleaned them and it started, ran and ticked over fine, then wouldnít restart, removed the crank drain and a bit of fuel ran out, Iím not convinced the needle valve is sealing so Iíll have the carb off this morning and have another look, is there a method of lapping the valve seat?.
(Iíll order some new points btw)


Last edited by Mark9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Villiers itus

Post  piston 197 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:52 am

The usual cause of "won't start when hot" is usually ignition problems, as a Flywheel gets warm it reduces magnetism and spark becomes weaker, allow to cool and it starts again ok.
Check timing, check points and set to .015", if it still continues then it may be worth buying a new ignition coil and getting the flywheel re-magnetised ( Villiers services do both)
Personally i do away with the HT side of the ignition coil, by cutting it down to the primary windings and connecting a remote 6Volt AC , between the coil and points connection, and mounting the remote coil away from the heat either in a toolbox or under the seat area.
There will be various posts on the forum explaining how to do this .
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:34 pm

The clamping screw on the points wasnít tight and the points had closed up, I reset to 15 thou, I had already reset the needle to 1.95 inches from over 2, went for a ride and itís running much better, held a steady 50mph and generally ran smoothly with a strong tick over, however after riding for 10 miles I got home and stopped the engine (with the strangler, there doesnít seem to be any other method?) and it wouldnít start again, JH looks as though you may well be right about the flywheel needing to be remagnetised, Iíll try it again in the morning to see if it will start from cold, Iím guessing it will, I spoke to Villiers services and itís a cheap enough job, anyway itís all moving in the right direction Smile, itís difficult to find info online for these engines but am I right in thinking that the flywheel nut is RH thread and acts as an extractor when undone?, also can I lock the flywheel sufficiently to undo the nut by putting the bike in gear?, thanks Mark.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Stopping the engine

Post  piston 197 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:43 pm

The throttle is suppose to be set so the engine stops when closed, there should not be a tickover as such, although one can be achieved with a friction type throttle, i.e not closing the twist grip fully,
Strangling the carb to stop it will flood it as this is the same as putting on the choke and it may be difficult to start after as there will be excess fuel in the engine.
If it is ticking over it can be stopped by putting it in gear and letting the clutch out with your foot on the brake,i.e stalling it.
Yes the flywheel is self extracting right hand thread, you should be able to undo by holding the flywheel with one hand and hitting the spanner in an anti-clockwise direction with a hammer, it will go slack after about a turn and a half and then retighten as the extraction is made, it will need to have the holding and hitting process done over again until the flywheel starts to extract off the taper.
The timing should be marked by an arrow on the periphery of the flywheel and a corresponding notch in the timing backplate at approx 2 O'Clock with the piston at top dead centre. Check before removal. After removing the flywheel it will need to be reset
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Thanks JH, I had wondered why there was no tickover stop/adjuster on the carb, Iíd set a tickover by adjusting the throttle cable, I had been stopping the engine sometimes by stalling and sometimes by turning the tickover down (by means of the throttle cable adjuster at the handlebar), but latterly by using the strangler, so if Iím lucky it will be the use of the strangler thatís leading to the hot start issue, Iíll ride again in the morning and ďstall stopĒ to see if it will start thereafter, amazing that they would design a bike that way!, all part of the charm though .

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:08 pm

Tried to start it this morning, nothing, not so much as a backfire!, so went out on one of my other bikes, got home this afternoon, took the crank drain out and a fair bit of milky white oily liquid poured out, water?, drain plug back in, not a glimmer of a start, drain plug out, milky oily liquid again, drain plug back in, fires 3rd kick, running well for one minute then starts to run rough, catch it on the throttle and ďbwoarĒ crack crack ďbwoarĒ itís trying to stop, then it does stop, wonít kick up again, Iím thinking Iíve got water in the fuel, I did drain the tank when I got it but only through the petrol tap which obviously doesnít completely drain, Iíve just taken the tank off and upended it and will let it dry for a couple of days, also emptied the float bowl, has anyone else seen this milky looking fuel oil mix coming from the drain?, I canít think it could be anything but water ?

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Water in fuel

Post  piston 197 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:13 pm

If it is water, take the carb off and see what is in the float bowl, if there is water in the system , there will be water in the float bowl , you could have leaking crankcases seals as well, drawing fluid in from the clutch case . The white emulsion could be air rather than water ?
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:33 pm

Too late on the bowl JH , I placed a rag under the bowl and undid the nut (not the most forensic method I admit), I suppose Iíll have to wait now until Iíve got the tank back on etc, hope itís not the seals I was wanting to give the bike to my Father next week as a surprise present, oh well it might have to wait a couple of more weeks if I have to do the seals as well, not having done one of these before (Iíve done a Suzuki super six a couple of years ago) what the general MO, is it engine out & complete strip?.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Seal change

Post  piston 197 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:39 pm

No can be done in the frame, seals will cost about £3.50p each, clutch cases off, clutch off, engine drive sprocket off, stab it with a screwdriver and pull it out, tap a new one in with a socket and refit parts.
Other side, flywheel off, back plate off, the seal is in the back plate, bit of gasket goo around the joint and re-assemble
Whole job should be no more than 45 minutes, no special tools required.
Like everything Villiers it is simplicity itself
JH
piston 197
piston 197
Moderator

Posts : 4306
Join date : 2008-08-17
Location : ross-on-wye

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Mark9 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:14 pm

Blimey, thatís good news, ok Iíll see what happens with a dry tank and new fuel, but even if new seals are required itís not the end of the world then, thanks for the advice JH much appreciated.

Mark9

Posts : 11
Join date : 2019-03-06

Back to top Go down

Re: 8e 197 g/box & clutch help

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum