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Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

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Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:06 am

Hello All,

I've just inherited a 1958 Cruiser 2T from my late father-in-law.

It's early days yet, the bike is basically in one piece but last run many decades ago.

It's not on a V5C and I don't have the old brown log book. I do have names of two previous owners. I checked at the Hull History Centre, the bike has a KH plate, but sadly my reg number entry card is missing, they have cards either side of mine, typical!

So my first question is, do the FB factory records exist? I have an Ariel too and those factory log books are still searchable.

Can the FB Club help with getting this bike onto a V5C and hopefully retaining its original number?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure there will be lots more questions later.

Regards

Chris


Last edited by chrisbwy on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  fulmar88 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:14 pm

Chris, In short there are no factory records so if you can't find a document with both the original reg and frame number on it then you won't be able to recover the number. John Harding (Piston197 on here) is the club dating officer and will be able to help you with the process of getting a V5C (and age related reg). I've just been through the pain of failing to retain the reg on my '64 4T Cruiser 89..

I assume you've checked it's not known by the DVLA when you say it's not on a V5C?

https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla


regards,
Steve.
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:08 pm

Thanks for the info Steve.

FB records was a long shot, shame.

DVLA does not recognise the number.

I suspect I will not find any original docs with frame+reg no on but will keep looking.

Let me get the bike home, this weekend, then I'll post a photo and get in touch with John for help.

Regards

Chris

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  FBKev on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:25 pm

Welcome to the forum Chris. When I registered my Falcon 81 I had similar. But no reg number, when details sent to DVLA with John's (Piston 197) help It turned out it was still on their system though listed as scrapped in 1995 & I ended up getting the original number back so it could worth a go?
Kev.
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:46 pm

Thanks Kev for the tip. I'll try that, you never know the DVLA might have some snippet of info somewhere. At least I have two previous keeper details which is something, though sadly not specific enough about the bike only its owners.

I'd love to know why/where my missing index card is!!

Regards

Chris

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HELLO - NEW OWNER 1958 CRUSIER 2T, BIKE REGISTRATION HELP - PHOTO ADDED

Post  chrisbwy on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 am

Not the best photo, but one of my latest acquisition on its way to a new home.

I have the front mudguard and headlamp cowl. Need to check in more detail if anything else is missing.

Click on image to view full, not sure why it's clipped.




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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  FBKev on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:22 pm

Doesn't look to bad. sort the engine/electrics wipe with an oily rag and ride as is. I know some will shoot me, but I love the age patina, on the other hand a sympathetic restoration is good too.
Kev.
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registration

Post  piston 197 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:17 pm

In the first instance go to the Post office and get a V62 application for a lost logbook, fill it in and send to DVLA, leave the registration blank and just fill in the Chassis No, DVLA will do a search to see if that frame No is allocated to a Reg No, you have to send them a cheque for £25, (send them a photo of the bike, frame No and engine No to help the process), if the search comes to Nowt, they return your cheque, if it is found to be registered they send you a logbook.
If this fails contact me to get the necessary to register it on an age related number

JH
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Your FB Cruiser

Post  FB vincent on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:36 am

Chris,

A few thoughts on your Cruiser Twin. You suggest it is a 1958 Cruiser, but at that time only the AMC single cylinder 25T engine was offered in this frame, and it was not until 1962 that the Villiers 2T engine was fitted. The frame prefix for 1958 is ZC. It is possible of course that a 2T engine has been fitted to replace the original AMC 25T.

Your bike is also fitted with the later James Mk 2 front forks, so assuming that these are original it will date the bike to model year 1963 (Cruiser 89 frame prefix EH). By 1964 the Villiers 4T engine was fitted to the Cruiser 89.

From your photo it appears that the 2T engine is fitted with the larger S25 carburettor, rather than the FB specified S22 which fitted under an aluminium bonnet with integral air cleaner.

If you let us know the frame prefix letters and engine prefix numbers it may be possible to identify some more history of the bike.

Arthur Gent's book 'Francis Barnett - The Complete Story' gives plenty of information about the later bikes.

Sandy

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:00 am

Many thanks to all for your replies, much appreciated.

Kev - yes, my plan is a sympathetic restoration/recommission, rather than full "stainless" nut and bolt resto.

JH - I will try the V62 route as you suggest, see what happens, thanks.

Sandy - your knowledge is amazing! More photos here...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/aHWk9n6yMtgaGCFF8

I'm not really sure where my idea that it was a 1958 model came from. Thinking about the reg number, 159 FKH, then it is very similar to one of my classic cars, 3 numbers, 3 letters, which is a 1962 model. I should have realised this. I think I will contact the Hull Records office again. They have record cards either side of mine, so should be able to give me dates for 158 FKH and 160 FKH, hopefully.

You can see the Villiers engine plate on one photo, but I might need to take a better shot to read all the numbers.

I wiped the bike down yesterday but couldn't see a frame number. I looked around the headstock area. Is that where it should be stamped?

Your comment about the carb is interesting too. A friend saw the bike and mentioned it was missing the carb cover - that's obviously why, it wouldn't fit over the larger S25 carb.

Any history or further comments much appreciated.

By the way it has a nice "Miles of Anlaby Road, Hull" dealer plate riveted to the rear mudguard!

Cheers all,

Chris

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  John Wakefield on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:09 pm

Cant quite make out the engine No pre fix looks like 429E but that's not on the list. Can you confirm the number. I would say that the plate looks remarkably new so wonder of at some point a new serial number plate has been obtained from Villiers Services and fitted. 159 FKH is a March 1963 registration

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:13 pm

Looking again I think it's 429D, which does appear to be correct for a 2T.

March 1963 bike it is then, cheers.

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MORE INFO

Post  piston 197 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:27 pm

John Wakefield wrote:Cant quite make out the engine No pre fix  looks like 429E but that's not on the list. Can you confirm the number. I would say that the plate looks remarkably new so wonder of at some point a new serial number plate has been obtained from Villiers Services and fitted. 159 FKH is a March 1963 registration

Should that read 429D ( not 429E?) which is the correct engine No for the Cruiser 89 with the 2T engine made in 1961//2/3 frame No commenced in September 61 ( 1962 model) at DH16015W and finished in September 62 at DH16669, then EH16670 onwards for 1963 models), being superceeded  in Sept 63 when frame Nos changed to FH ( for 1964 models) and the 4T was fitted ( eng pre-fix 687E), your registration No ending FKH was issued by Kingston upon Hull commencing 1 FKH in Jan 1963,and ending 999FKH in May 1963 and was an allocation strictly reserved for motorcycles.
It would naturally follow that your frame No is most likely to begin EH, especially as you have the lower headlamp and 1963 style front forks, and be greater than 16670 , unless it had sat unsold in a shop for more than 6 months and the front end has been changed ?
The frame No should be stamped into the L/hand side of the steering headstock.
JH
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  John Wakefield on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:31 pm

piston 197 wrote:
John Wakefield wrote:Cant quite make out the engine No pre fix  looks like 429E but that's not on the list. Can you confirm the number. I would say that the plate looks remarkably new so wonder of at some point a new serial number plate has been obtained from Villiers Services and fitted. 159 FKH is a March 1963 registration

Should that read 429D ( not 429E?) which is the correct engine No for the Cruiser 89 with the 2T engine made in 1961//2/3 frame No commenced in September 61 ( 1962 model) at DH16015W and finished in September 62 at DH16669, then EH16670 onwards for 1963 models), being superceeded  in Sept 63 when frame Nos changed to FH ( for 1964 models) and the 4T was fitted ( eng pre-fix 687E), your registration No ending FKH was issued by Kingston upon Hull commencing 1 FKH in Jan 1963,and ending 999FKH in May 1963 and was an allocation strictly reserved for motorcycles.
It would naturally follow that your frame No is most likely to begin EH and be greater than 16670 , unless it had sat unsold in a shop for more than 6 moonths.
The frame No should be stamped into the L/hand side of the steering headstock.
JH

Quite so John our emails have clashed. The date of the reg No can be narrowed down to March 63 as a Lambretta 171FKH is the nearest listed on DVLA

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date

Post  piston 197 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:38 pm

That will give you the registration date, but not the manufacture date, obviously it will be made sometime prior to registration, from the style of it, it is almost certainly a 1963 model made between Sept 1962 and a registration date of March 1963, it push comes to shove a manufacture date of 1962 will lead to not having a "A" plate suffix if an age-related plate is the only recourse to getting it registered, if i had a frame No i would be nearer an accurate dating.
You cannot determine much from a registration date other than determining it cannot be later than when registered
JH
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:48 pm

Hull Records office have confirmed that either side of my bike the registrations were early March '63. So you are all spot on.

I'll have to look closely with a torch on the headstock for the frame number under the layers of paint. I have found a photo online of what/where to look.

Regards


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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:48 am

Update...

Engine No. 429D 11857
Frame No. EH 16878

How does that fit with your records/knowledge JH?

Regards

Chris

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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  piston 197 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:57 am

EH16878 is a 1963 model cruiser 89 in standard Arden green finish and is some 208 machines past the commencement of 1963 models EH16670 in sept 1962, EH numbers finished approx EH17100 ( i do not have the exact number, meaning a total number of EH frames approx 470 based on this amount produced i a year total i would put your bike being produced early 1963 ( approximate)

429D11857 is the correct spec 2T 249cc Villiers twin engine fitted to these machines and is likely to be the original engine, but as no records exist i cannot be certain? Looking at existing known original Cruiser 89 machines the engine number are not in sequence so cannot be certain

JH
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

Post  chrisbwy on Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 am

Thanks JH.

I note that "A" plates started 1st Feb '63, so if I am allocated an age related plate for this bike is it likely to be an "A" or could it sneak into 3 numbers, 3 letters style as per its original?

I will get a copy of the necessary form from the PO and send it off.

Regards

Chris

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registration

Post  piston 197 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:48 am

your registration number does not appear on the DVLA search list, so most likely your form will be returned, but you never know, if they return it they will send forms for you to apply for an age related number, when/if this happens i can assist you with the necessary paperwork to obtain an age-related number

JH
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Re: Hello - new owner 1958 Crusier 2T, bike registration help, photo added

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