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1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

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4T electrics

Post  Bigjim on Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:20 pm

No not sure. I seem to remember that the 4T used normal style points & coil ignition as most 4 strokes did. †When I get home I'll look it up. †It was one of the big differences twixt 2T & 4T engines. Save the centre oil seal and the head running.

UPDATE the coils ran as normal Villiers 2T, with a FULL wave rectify charging system.



Last edited by Bigjim on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FB89 4T ignition system

Post  FB vincent on Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:43 am

John Wakefield wrote:
Bigjim wrote:Yes you partly correct. †The older 2T used flywheel †magneto coil ignition. The 4T used more modern battery coil ignition. †A modern bridge rectifier †has 2 AC inputs, it doesn't matter which goes where and 2 DC outputs. †Plus & minus. They do matter. Yes it is full wave. When I get home I'll †look up my wiped book for a wiring diagram.

Are you sure that the 4T is battery coil ignition? In the Greeves they are flywheel mag, with remote HT coils
Only the Siba Dynastart version is to my knowledge battery coil ign.
As for rectifier use the square block type like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bridge-Rectifier-KBPC-1010-2-Phase-Diode-10A-Amp-1000V-Metal-Case-/331948549880?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10

Only the 4T engined FB Cruiser 89's supplied to police forces (known examples are ex Norfolk and North Yorks police) had DC coil ignition in conjunction with a Villiers high output generator. The system is similar to the Wipac system used on the AMC engined Cruiser 80 and other bikes, except that the Villiers generator is used in conjunction with Lucas DC coils and Lucas finned rectifiers. Steve's bike is fitted with the standard 4T ignition system which does indeed differ from the 2T system but does not use DC coils.

If you uses the Forum 'Search' function you will find more on this subject. Sandy

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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:19 am

Big jim, †There isn't an FB diagram of the 4T set-up but see the one below from the Villiers workshop manual. The switch shown is a Lucas one but otherwise it is as my bike is wired up. Note the 4T has a 5 pin engine plug as opposed to the 2T's 6 pin. The yellow wire is the one that is missing in the 4T plug. The 2T diagram is at the bottom for reference.






Steve.
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  John Wakefield on Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:47 pm

The difference between the 4T & 2T diagram is that the yellow wire on the 2T is tapped into half of one of the lighting coils so appears to provide a 3rd (lower) charging option. On the 4T there are only two charging rates. With headlight off one coil charges battery and with head light on the 2nd is switched in. Problem is that with lights off the battery gets too higher charge of over 2 amps at high revs which can cook the battery on a long run. To counter this I ride with pilot/rear lights on thus reducing the charge to an acceptable level. Alternatively ride with headlight on (a good thing for safety) at which setting the there is only a minimal charge going into battery.


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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  FB vincent on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:06 am

On my 4T engined cruiser with high output generator, I solved the overcharging problem by fitting a 35/40 watt headlamp bulb. The original police spec would have specified a larger battery and radio/telephone which would have absorbed the current.

The AMC/wipac system included a resistance wire to reduce overcharging when running on pilot lights only.

Sandy

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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  John Wakefield on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:32 am

The overcharging is only a problem when running without lights. The max charge to battery needs to be 1 amp maximum
With regards the police bikes I am not sure how they got away with 6 volts as most of the radio equipment would have been 12 volt. Greeves also supplied a few 4T engines Essex models for City of London Police and like the FB ones were 6 volt. But Greeves then supplied a batch of 37A 250 singles to City of London and Staffordshire Police in 1968 but these had the 12 volt Siba Dynastart system.

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Charging

Post  kerabo on Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:01 am

Why don't you fit a modern regulator rectifier.

It was 8 years ago but pretty certain thats what I done.

You may be correct Sandy but I thought everything apart from emergency went through the resistor wire.

Regards Ken
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:13 pm

peter@dunfordconstruction wrote:Hi John & Steve,

If thats the case they might fit!

Peter

Peter, thank you for sending the pipes. Unfortunately they donít fit. Not sure whether this is because they are 2T pipes or more likely because they are aftermarket. There is little room above the footrest and the pipe is not horizontal here resulting in a silencer that is two inches too high at the back and the fixing canít align with the pillion footrest bolt. PM me the cost of your postage and Iíll return them. I have your address.

So, Iím still looking for pipes. To be safe I think itís best to limit the search to FB original pipes off a 4T Cruiser 89. Then they must fit. Only feature that must be present is good flanges, condition otherwise can be scruffy.

Steve.
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:36 am

kerabo wrote:Why don't you fit a modern regulator rectifier.

It was 8 years ago but pretty certain thats what I done.

You may be correct Sandy but I thought everything apart from emergency went through the resistor wire.

Regards Ken

Hi Ken, I was unsure of how to connect a modern one up as the original 4T rectifier has 4 connections plus a central earth. I contacted Al Osborn (A O Services) and he supplied a modern rectifier with a marked up diagram showing how to connect it.

Sandy, once the bike is up and running successfully I'll return your original rectifiers.

Steve.
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:54 pm

Only waiting for my original downpipes to come back from a local fab shop who are welding on new flanges, and a clutch cable which Iíve had to have made up (in black). Otherwise the bike is back together save for the tank and seat. Mechanically restored but cosmetically only cleaned and preserved. I estimate from the mileage and lack of corrosion that it was probably less than 10 years old when last used. I need to decide whether to fit the original boy racer modded silencers which have good chrome or the replacements Iíve found which are complete but dull and scratched. Decisions, decisions.







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silencers

Post  piston 197 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:00 pm

Steve,
I have 2 used silencers, but they are both the same hand, and would need the bracket moving on one to be a pair they are suitably aged for your bike, but not checked to see if they are 2T or 4T
I will have a look
JH
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:28 pm

piston 197 wrote: Steve,
I have 2 used silencers, but they are both the same hand, and would need the bracket moving on one to be a pair †they are suitably aged for your bike, but not checked to see if they are 2T or 4T
I will have a look
JH

John thanks but Iím happy to fit the dull pipes if I decide not to keep to the originals. They cost me enough and Iíve spent far too much on this bike already. Twice the amount on parts (especially the engine) than the bike cost. I got the sprocket today by the way and fitted this evening. Thanks.

Steve.
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  Druid on Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:05 pm

With regard to the electrical system on the earlier 2T engine, having a centre tapped "lighting" winding (yellow wire) this connection allows for full wave rectification using two diodes, hence only three connections, 2 a.c. input and 1 d.c. on the diode block. I have updated my system by using a modern rectifier/regulator (Electrex universal 6/12 V circuit) in place of the original basic two stage charge control. The two lighting windings are paralleled and connected to the electronic rectifier/regulator a.c. input and the yellow connection left disconnected making the wiring simpler.
Dave.

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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  FB vincent on Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:19 am

[quote="fulmar88"]Only waiting for my original downpipes to come back from a local fab shop who are welding on new flanges, and a clutch cable which Iíve had to have made up (in black). Otherwise the bike is back together save for the tank and seat. Mechanically restored but cosmetically only cleaned and preserved. I estimate from the mileage and lack of corrosion that it was probably less than 10 years old when last used. I need to decide whether to fit the original boy racer modded silencers which have good chrome or the replacements Iíve found which are complete but dull and scratched. Decisions, decisions.

Steve,

At the time of the 4T engine launch, Villiers proudly announced that the silencer was specially tuned for the engine, and contributed to the increase in power as against the 2T. This is what was stated in 'Motor Cycling' for September 11th 1963:

'Contributing towards this increase is a new silencer embodying a small bore internal tube, with a critical length of 18 in, running through the silencer baffles to minimise resonance.'

The hacked about silencers in your photo look awful!

Sandy

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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:30 pm

After a 4 week wait due to staff holidays I finally got the downpipes back from the fab shop yesterday. Assembled this morning and after a few minutes fiddling she fired up for the first time in 40+ years and successfully completed 30 miles without issue. Thanks to those who offered help, parts and advice especially Sandy, JH and Peter.


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Just how i like them !

Post  piston 197 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Exactly as i like them, original and cosmetically unrestored, next thing on your list must be a kickstart cover, the screw is there in the end of the shaft, but the cover is missing, still if i was you i would wait for a suitably distressed one to turn up, or give a new one the battery acid and cowmuck treatment

JH
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

Post  fulmar88 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:34 pm

Thanks John. If theyíre not too far gone I agree, much better to leave them as they left the factory. My Fulmar is unrestored too and in better condition cosmetically than this one. I noticed the kickstart cover in the 4T workshop manual but wasnít sure if it was only for the Ďcarí versions. I shall look out for one.

Steve.
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Re: 1964 4T Cruiser 89 Parts required

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