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Villiers coils...

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Villiers coils...

Post  john87 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:36 pm

Hi All,

Has anyone had any problems with replacement [presumably chinese] Villiers ignition coils??

I fitted one, bad mistake... To stop serious arcing at the points i had to fit an external 2.2mF capacitor, and the thing decides to stop sparking after about three miles and you get to push the bike home.. [Twice today..]

I have changed every single other part of the ignition system and it made no difference at all. When it does spark though, it is a great spark.. Primary resistance is about right at 0.3 ohms and secondary is a bit high at about 5k, but i swear it was only about 3 and a bit a week ago...

Any ideas?? anyone know where i can get a proper villiers coil rewound??

john..

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Coil

Post  kerabo on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:06 am

I fitted an eBay coil to my 8E and it also had what I would call excessive arching at the points. I had lots of problems getting it to start easy. I fitted an external condencer checked and double checked the points and insulators. In the end I bought a used backplate from a Seagul outboard and fitted the complete points and condencer and the housing they mount in and it was instantly ok.

A little thing to remember is if the points are not completely flat it's going to give erratic sparking.

So I am not so sure it was the cheap coil.

Ken
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coils

Post  john87 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:10 am

Hi Ken,

That is good enough for me... i am just in the process of finding someone to rewind the original one. Pisses me off that suppliers sell this crap..

john..

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Re: Villiers coils...

Post  john87 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:45 pm

kerabo wrote:I fitted an eBay coil to my 8E and it also had what I would call excessive arching at the points. I had lots of problems getting it to start easy. I fitted an external condencer checked and double checked the points and insulators. In the end I bought a used backplate from a Seagul outboard and fitted the complete points and condencer and the housing they mount in and it was instantly ok.

A little thing to remember is  if the points are not completely flat it's going to give erratic sparking.

So I am not so sure it was the cheap coil.

Ken

Hi Ken, do you mean that you fitted the new backplate but KEPT the Ebay coil???

john..

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coil

Post  denman on Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 pm

Hi John, you can obtain a new coil from VILLIERS SERVICES or fit a remote one. cheers Den.

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Cheap coils

Post  kerabo on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:18 pm

john87 wrote:
kerabo wrote:I fitted an eBay coil to my 8E and it also had what I would call excessive arching at the points. I had lots of problems getting it to start easy. I fitted an external condencer checked and double checked the points and insulators. In the end I bought a used backplate from a Seagul outboard and fitted the complete points and condencer and the housing they mount in and it was instantly ok.

A little thing to remember is  if the points are not completely flat it's going to give erratic sparking.

So I am not so sure it was the cheap coil.

Ken

Hi Ken, do you mean that you fitted the new backplate but KEPT the Ebay coil???

john..

No I kept my back plate as the Seagull has a smaller flywheel and back plate but the points and hosing for the points are the same. A chap had loads of seagull stuff on ebay. Mine kept spitting as it got hot and then it would backfire and alter the timing. I though I would be clever and fit and external coil and although it ran it was not right.
OK now using the seagull parts and the cheap eBay coil.
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Back plate ?

Post  piston 197 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:42 pm

Think you 2 are talking at cross purposes ??
10E engine uses external points plate with fixed keyed flywheel and condenser inside outer cover as in original question by john87
8E uses internal points ( same as Seagull) in a separate housing with condenser built into the underside of this ( Kerabo)

Seagull parts will be of no use to a 10E engine as totally different, but will interchange with 8E

JH
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Post  kerabo on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:50 pm

piston 197 wrote:Think you 2 are talking at cross purposes ??
10E engine uses external points plate with fixed keyed flywheel and condenser inside outer cover as in original question by john87
8E uses internal points ( same as Seagull) in a separate housing with condenser built into the underside of this ( Kerabo)

Seagull parts will be of no use to a 10E engine as totally different, but will interchange with 8E

JH

Didn't realize sorry.
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Re: Villiers coils...

Post  john87 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:58 pm

I am not interested in which engine, but the practicalities of what happens when you fit crappy no doubt chinese ignition coils..

What happened then Ken. Did you fit the baseplate etc and keep the ebay coil, or swap the lot??

Anyone got any secondhand but good proper viliiers coils??? [to cold too type properly here...]

john..

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Swap the lot

Post  piston 197 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:02 pm

The seagull is a much smaller flywheel and backplate which will not fit the 8E so i would suggest Ken just used the points, and points housing with built in condenser onto his existing 8E backplate, the coil would have been a different radius to suit the smaller Seagull flywheel , so cannot imagine the coil from the Seagull was used ?? correct me if i am wrong ?
JH
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Villiers coils

Post  FB vincent on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:09 pm

I guess we are are talking about the 10E engine fitted to the Falcon 81.

Talking to someone who knows all about Villiers engines, I understand that the smaller size of the 9E/10E coils results in less reliability than the larger coils fitted to the 8E. By modernising the outside appearance of the engine the magneto components had to be made smaller.

The (presumably original) ignition coil on my Falcon 81 gave up after a few months in my ownership. A new coil lasted about six months, but it's replacement has been ok. So that's three coils in five years. (So don't knock the Wipac HT system of the AMC 20T - the external coil dates from 1960 and is going well!)

Sandy




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External

Post  piston 197 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:20 pm

I have always stripped the HT windings off the coil down to the thicker LT windings and used a separate remote 6Volt AC HT coil on my trials bikes and have never had a problem, having the HT coil outside of the heat of the engine is a better idea, Villiers themselves did this on the 1H and 2T engines, but never did on the 8E/10E bikes, although they did use an external remote coil on their "work" trials bikes,
The ex Arthur Shutt works bike i have had a 6 Volt coil from a Volkwagen fitted to the underside of the seat.
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Coil

Post  kerabo on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:38 pm

piston 197 wrote:The seagull is a much smaller flywheel and backplate which will not fit the 8E so i would suggest Ken just used the points, and points  housing with built in condenser onto his existing 8E backplate, the coil would have been a different radius to suit the smaller Seagull flywheel , so cannot imagine the coil from the Seagull was used ?? correct me if i am wrong ?
JH

That's what I was trying to say. The coil is different so just used the points and points housing completr with condencer

Ken
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Chinese crap coils

Post  john87 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:16 pm

Do not know what i should do.. I could do the external coil thing, but i would rather keep it all standard if i can.. I will see if the coil rewinders get back to me and i will tell you all what happens!!!

john..

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Coil thing

Post  piston 197 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Nobody would be any the wiser, you can bring the coil lead up through a thick black cable from the normal HT pick up position, and mount the coil out of sight either under the tank or in the toolbox, personally i would recommend in the toolbox as under the tank still gets heat from the cylinder head, but is in air flow when ridden.
All you need to do is cut the insulation off the original Villiers HT coil and cut and peel back the HT windings until the thicker LT windings are exposed, the windings will be about 3/4" diameter when you reach this stage, wrap these with insulation tape and refit coil. You will now have just one lead from the coil to the points, join a wire to this lead at either end or in the middle, your choice.
I use a single lead HT coil which is earthed to the frame through the body of the coil, this also gives you the option of fitting a cut out switch in the coil lead.
Never had a problem with it myself and trials bikes are continually stopped and started when hot.
JH
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