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Rectifiers Falcon58 - again

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Rectifiers Falcon58 - again

Post  HyFy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:40 pm

Hi

I'm still having problems sourcing something to replace an original rectifier for my Falcon 58 (Villiers 6E). From previous advice, I got embroiled in discussions about modern bridge rectifiers and requirements to dismantle the lighting coils in the magneto to find the earth ends of the coils and feed them to...

Does anyone have suggestions as to a more simple solution? I really don't want to have to explore the insides of the magneto and the possibility of disconnecting the ends of the lighting coils, simply to replace a rectifier.

Even a replacement selenium rectifier would do. The last one ran perfectly for nearly 60 years so...

Any ideas other than A Reg 6's please. A Reg 6's do not directly connect.

HyFy
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rectifier

Post  kerabo on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:26 pm

What should the original one be like.

I have the one from my Falcon 87 its the large square one. I have gone solid state.

Ken
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Original Rectifier:-

Post  HyFy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:15 pm

Thanks for your response Ken,

The original looks like the picture attached and is a "large black square". I would like to say that there was a picture attached but I've had a load of problems with trying to get it attached. It has Westinghouse "Cat No. 2L985 Positive case" on it...

Advice on solid state ones (an A Reg 6) so far, entails, apparently, taking apart the flywheel/magneto and identifying/detaching/isolating the lighting coil earths and feeding them out to the new rectifier. Seems a huge amount of work for very little advantage. There may be a difference between the older magnetos and later ones which needs the extra work. I may have to go to that extent but I would prefer to explore the alternatives first. Any help gratefully received.

HyFy


Last edited by HyFy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added more info)
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Rectifier

Post  kerabo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:46 pm

Do you have a wirning diagram for you bike you could show me on here. The A Reg6 is a rectifier and also a voltage regualtor in one but there is a cheaper one that just rectifies only 5 or 6 pounds. So long as its AC coming from you coils I cant see it can be that hard to do. Not seen a 6E but if it originaly has wired to a rectifier you should be able to change it.
Regards Ken
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Wiring Diagram and Rectifier

Post  HyFy on Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:03 pm

Thanks for your reply

I will try and attach links to a picture of the rectifier and a wiring diagram. With regard to the latter, if my memory serves me, the connection from the lighting coils goes straight to contact "2" on the headlamp switch and then back to the rectifier. The Manual accepts that this is an alternative. The system is positive earth.

Here goes with the images. It took me ages not to succeed last night. Perhaps we will have more luck now!!



You can see it took me 15 and 17 tries to get even this far and I don't consider myself to be a computer dummy. Maybe the instructions aren't that clear.

Thanks

Geoffrey [HyFy]
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Pasting Photos into Forum

Post  bessybarnett on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:14 am

Hi Geoffrey,

I am no expert and I have had similiar probs in the past placing a picky on this forum. I seem to have it sussed now. One thing I had a problem with, was pasting the correct image size into the forum. Yours, like mine sometimes, have been cropped on placing, making diagrams difficult to follow. I have overcome this by reducing their size, first in the host software (i.e. tinypic, photobucket - I use). It occasionally requires a bit of trial and error. All this maybe obvious to the experts but even I have had issues with this and I am a Graphic Designer/Cartographer using PC's!!

I have pasted the text regarding " Adding Images to your post" that Mark (Admin) kindly put in the 'General Chat' section a while back, just in case you haven't seen it.

Hope this helps.

Pete


ADDING IMAGES TO YOUR POST
Admin on Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:10 pm

.To put images into your posting the image must be hosted elsewhere on the internet. One host I have found that works quickly and works well is tinypic.com.On the tinypic home page you will see a box marked file, using the browse button at the end of that box look for the image file on your computer, select it and press open. Then using the up and down arrows where it says resize, select message board. Then click the green UPLOAD NOW button after a few minutes a new page will appear with link codes, highlight the code in IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards and press copy. Now paste this code into your posting on the forum. If anybody has any problems with this please let me know and if you have a better way of doing this please also let know. HOPE THIS HAS HELPED.


Last edited by bessybarnett on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling correction!)
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Images

Post  HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:01 am

Thanks for that Pete

I thought that I had done most of that but from what you say the images are cropped. They seem ok on my version. I had actually just pasted the URL to the host and when I reviewed/posted they appeared as images as posted!!

I will have another look on another machine. You're right - they are cropped!! I reduced them to 800 as suggested by the host Serving.com but they look as though they are 600 wide.

I will try and re-post them but if not I'll try tinypic.com as an alternative host

HyFy
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Pictures again

Post  HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:15 am

This is a further try at getting the images posted without cropping.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

They look OK but I'll check after posting on another machine...

They are now at 500pix wide. That's it I've checked it elsewhere and they are fine. 500 wide it has to be!!

HyFy


Last edited by HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:26 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : To crop pictures even smaller)
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Pictures again

Post  bessybarnett on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:39 pm

Hi Geoffrey

Photos fine for me now! - as you suggested, it looks as though it depends on how an individual computer screen/resolution is set up!

Regards

Pete

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Thanks Pete

Post  HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:19 pm

Thanks Pete for getting that sorted.

Now all I need is to get the rectifier sorted!!!

HyFy
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Rectifier

Post  kerabo on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:45 pm

I think you should be able to fit the standard solid state rectifier on this. Your headlamp looks like its direct lighting so you would keep this as its AC current see link below
(the bridge rectifier)
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyelectrex.htm

I dont see any form of current regulation on this unless its has an inbuilt resistor in the rectifier so I guess its made to just let the correct amount through, or if you want fit the A Reg6 although these are expensive but would take care of the charge with no problems.

If you want to try I will help all I can if needed. But its only advice

Regards Ken
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A Reg 6

Post  HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:48 pm

Thanks for that reply Ken

I'm in a bit of difficulty here. I had already passed my enquiry to Mr Goff and he kindly forwarded it to a technical chap who came up with the idea of having to take the flywheel and then magneto apart to isolate/disconnect and take a feed off the earth side of the lighting coils to connect to the A Reg 6. I'm not even sure if that is possible as I haven't looked inside the magneto for 40 plus years!! I really hadn't thought to have to go to that sort of effort just to replace the rectifier. He wasn't completely sure that even if it could be done whether it would work.

This was why I came back to the forum to see what other options might be "out there".

The lights on the bike (positive frame) either run off the battery or directly off the magneto depending on the position of the main switch. There is a resistive wire which I understand does the regulating job.

In the end I guess I may be having to resort to dismantling the magneto to see if it is possible to isolate the earth sides of the coils but before that I may just try to get a replacement selenium one. The last one did a good job for 60 years!

In the meantime I'm trying to identify the 22 tpi thread in the front wheel axle clamp bolts. They are apparently supposed to be 26 but these are definitely 22 - ?5/16 BSF?

Isn't it fun...

HyFy
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Post  kerabo on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:54 pm

Well if its got a resistor wire it should accept the bridge rectified. For 5 or 6 pounds if it were mine I would try it. Or fit a switch to isolate the battery. Ken
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Rectifier

Post  stuart elkes on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Hi I am abit of a duffer regarding vehicle electrics but when Irebuilt my Falcon 58 in 2005 I bought an original wiring loom asolid state rectifier from villiers services who gave me a wiring diagram to tell me how to connect the four terminals it hides under the seat charging the battery lighting the lights 8000 miles later it still works like a good un. Phone villiers ask for rectifier and a diagram problem solved easy simply and cheaply. stuart elkes.

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Thanks Stuart

Post  HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:54 pm

Your response snook in whilst I was replying to the last one. Thank you. Maybe I will do just that. But thank you to all who have contributed. I am new to this pastime of classic bikes. Up to now it has been just a bike which ran. Now it needs tlc!!!

HyFy.

PS I take it that this is www.villiersparts.co.uk?


Last edited by HyFy on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding clarification)
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Rectifier

Post  Mikexyz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Hello,
You have 2 options here.
You can fit a modern bridge rectifier + connect it up either half wave rectification as standard or ,full wave rectification + almost double your charging current.
The voltage regulation relies on the battery being able to absorb the excess charge, (generates heat) so need to fit at least 5 Amp hour type.
Either way is easy to fit + involves no alteration to your coils, (you will need to add an extra connection from them though) or main wiring loom, only how you connect to the rectifier. If you P.M. me your address I can send you a diagram showing the connections. I need to know if you positive or negative earth.
You can also upgrade to 12 volts by just fitting battery + bulbs.

regards, Mike


Last edited by Mikexyz on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)

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Thanks

Post  HyFy on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:43 pm

Thanks Mike,

Address en route.

HyFy
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Rectifier

Post  Mikexyz on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:19 pm

Hello,
Address received, information + a rectifier on it's way.
regards, Mike

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... + a rectifier?

Post  HyFy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:28 pm

Did you mean "information + a rectifier..."? If so I trust that I can pay.

Thanks for help.

Geoffrey
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Rectifiers

Post  Mikexyz on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:42 pm

Hello,

Don't worry about it, I have a few kicking about as I work in an Electronics Lab!

Mike

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When I next pass...

Post  HyFy on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Dear Mike

When I next pass your neck of the woods I will buy you a beer.

I will hopefully get a few minutes between preparing the house for sale to fit the rectifier tomorrow.

I may hide it under the existing rectifier (plenty of space!) as I have it in mind to do a night event or two and I don't want some eagle eyed scrutineer...

I will let you know the outcome.

HyFy
(Geoffrey)
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Thanks also to Stuart

Post  HyFy on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Thanks also to Stuart

The chap at Villiers Parts that you mentioned was also very helpful. I will remember him for the next time...

What wonderful chaps you all are...

HyFy
(Geoffrey HYDE FYNN)
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It's charging but...

Post  HyFy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi,

I've fitted the rectifier and like magic the current drain is no longer there. The "Direct" position on the 4 - position switch now shows that the system is providing power but maybe not as much as I thought/recalled. The headlamp lights but certainly not as brightly as on battery.

Without any lights on, the ammeter shows a charge (not a huge one) when I rev up the engine. But as soon as I put any lights on, the ammeter goes way into discharge but not FSD. (Without the engine running and with the headlamp on the ammeter is almost FSD in the discharge.) Can I check that there is a realistic amount of charge from the lighting coils? If so what is the best way?

BUT when I switched off the engine I checked the battery voltage and even though I had been using the battery to run the headlamp etc. during the tests, the battery was showing slightly more volts than before I started the engine. So something must be right. Am I expecting too much? I recall that when the bike was in regular night use in my teens, I used to run the lights on battery and rely on the engine to keep things afloat. I lived in the country and the "Direct" was not good enough for the unlit roads.

Do I need to go for full wave rectification to improve things?

HyFy
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Post  Mikexyz on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:16 am

Hello,
Your electrical system is similiar to the one fitted to my Cruiser, the charge should balance the load when the bike is running above 20mph .
You need to check
1. That the correct bulbs are fitted, (18 or 24 watt, not sure which) there isn't enough power to upgrade from the listed ones!
2. Good earths throughout - don't rely on the frame or engine bolts, wire it!
3. Good coils - to check them connect the wire that comes from them, (normally goes to rectifier) to a spare headlight bulb, return wire to engine case; start the engine + it should light up brightly as the revs rise.
4. The ammeter is only a rough guide - really need to look at voltage as well.

I use mine on 'direct 'position most of the time, it only shows a small charge + the lights aren't that good but it does top up the battery.
Upgrading to 12 volts involves dismantling the armature plate + adding an extra wire from engine to rectifier but your FB should be capable of at least 'supporting' 6 volts first as it did originally when new.

regards, Mike

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I'll get onto it...

Post  HyFy on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:06 pm

Thanks Mike

I'll get onto it between viewings for house on sale!! The Falcon has to parked outside under cover in order to show the full potential of the garage!!

I thoroughly agree with you about "earth returns". I haven't checked mine but will do so.

I'll let you know the outcome.

HyFy
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