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Electric puzzle for you.

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Modern rectifiers

Post  FB vincent on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:18 am

Graham, I have replied to you separately.

Paul Goff provides the following helpful information on the rectifiers he supplies, as follows:

'Terminal marked AC to alternator, either wire. Terminal diagonally opposite to alternator, either wire.

Terminal marked + to positive, usually red and earthed on British bikes. Terminal diagonally opposite to negative.'

But I still cannot identify both AC wires from the 2T Villiers generator! Where are the electrical engineers from amongst us?

Sandy

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Rectifier

Post  MoscowFlyer on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:28 pm

Hi, I can now confirm that the diagram I drew is correct. As the 2T wiring diagram I put up is incorrect for the Cruiser 89, I've removed it to aviod confusion. Mike
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Wiring

Post  kerabo on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:43 pm

I dont know if this helps or you have already had this one but I have a very old 2T manual and this is the diagram from it.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54646195/2T%20wiring%20diagram.jpg

In this case

Green is from the generator to the points and coil
Purple is from the coils and is the AC feed and goes to the switch LH
Blue is from the generator and goes to the other points and coil
Yellow comes off the coil winding half way along so its reduced power and goes to 3 on the switch and also feeds the battery with a small charge hence reduced power
Red is from the generator and goes to the rectifier
Black is from the generator and goes to the rectifier

Its a little strange as it looks like the red goes to the rectifier and joins with the green and then goes to the switch No 3 and through the amp meter to the battery This means the battery gets a AC current and thats not correct.
So for wires to go to a new rectifier I would be trying with an AC voltmeter the BLACK the RED and the YELLOW to see if they are all equal outputs. It could be easier to use a rectifier/regulator and do away with the direct current lighting.
Hope this dont confuse you more

Ken

Sorry the best I can do
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Wiring

Post  tbird on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:30 am

Ken
Thanks for that info and Sandy has helped too.
So now if you fit a Paul Goff rectifier/regulater which has two (2) wires coming from it and the Villiers geny has four (4) wires two from each set of coils, would you need two rectifier/regulaters to do the job.???
I am looking at all possabilities. hopefully without too much alteration to the wiring harness.
The main point I think is to get the right DC volts to charge the battery.

Graham (tbird)
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Re: Electric puzzle for you.

Post  kerabo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:17 pm

Although you have 4 wires you only have 2 generator coils for charging I think that any extra wires must be earth It's getting to the limit of what I understand about this system . But I will try to study it more later Try sending mail to paul Goff or nametab Regards Ken
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wiring

Post  kerabo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:30 pm

The way I see it you have 3 wires from the charging coils the Black that earths both coils and the Red and Purple My guess is if you put an AC volt meter between the Black and the Purple or Red you will see charge. I am not 100 % sure but I guess the black goes to the chassis through the rectifier but again I am not 100% sure. If you were to fit a new regulator /rectifier you would need to make several changes and its not easy on here to explain everything else I think if it was mine I would be making the coils run from a battery and then use everything else to charge that batterythrough a regulator /rectifier. But please phone paul goff or villiers services or nametab Simon at nametab is a nice chap and i am sure he would help if he could

If your feeling realy flush you could fit a peter savage 12v solid state ignition and charging system and do away with points and timing

regards ken
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Wiring

Post  tbird on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 am

Hi All
I have put this question to Paul Goff but he said he did not know and put me in touch with another guy.
I put the question to him and he said that the regulator/rectifier is not an option, keep the solid state rectifier.
I have now asked him a different question ??? which I will put on the forum when I get a reply.
I hope I am not boring you lot out there but I would like to get it right before I fit the 89 up electrically.
The circuit below is the proper 89 circuit.
Graham (tbird) Rolling Eyes
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wiring

Post  kerabo on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:18 pm

No not boring me at all. I love a chalenge Especially when its not mine bike Very Happy

So the diagram above is the one that you using/

Ken
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wiring

Post  tbird on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:04 am

Hi Ken
Yes that is the proper 89 diagram, which is the one I am trying to alter.
But having looked at all the talk on this forum I think I am going too deep.
I should be concentrating on one thing at a time, the solid state rectifier is the first thing to put in the circuit, this is the first problem as I haven't got any where with the output from that.??? It is DC so to my mind it should be a charging wire, but where does it go to>??????

I haven't started the engine yet so do not know if the villiers coils (Ign and charging ) are any good, as the engine hasn't gone for a few years I have my doubts.

So where does that wire go from the rectifier.????

Graham (tbird) Evil or Very Mad Embarassed
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wiring

Post  kerabo on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Its a bit of a strange on this as you have the black the light red and the violet that are alternator wires. If it was 2 wires it would be easy. The black wire confuses me a little. It may be whats called a 3 phase alternator and I dont fully understand . The small solid state rectifiers are not that expensive I would be inclined to just try by connecting the light red and voilet to the 2 ac terminals on the rectifier. Some how that black need to come into the circuit

I wont tell you to earth it but if it was mine I would be trying it. Or get profisional advice

Is it possible to see it if an earth where it connects to the old rectifier?
Put a test light between the batt live and that terminal and see if it lights.

Ken.
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Solid State Rectifiers

Post  tbird on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:26 pm

Hi Ken
The last thing you said was "Quote get professional advise" I was hoping that there was a club member with this experience.
I am still waiting for that response, He must be out there somewhere.

HELP HELP


Graham (tbird) Mad Sad Sad Sleep
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Electrical problem

Post  kerabo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:51 pm

Hi Graham. I am away from home till early April so sorry to not reply but we can try more when I get home if your still not sorted. Regards Ken
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Electrical Problems

Post  tbird on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Ken
I hope the snow does not spoil your time away.

Graham(tbird) No
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LIsten Up Rectifiers and regulators....

Post  aoservices on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:36 pm

A O Services here--the professional! Sorry Ken stop guessing! You are so far off the mark that your 'half' ideas are getting dangerous.
If you are trying to get a 2T up to scratch, throw away the naff large square SELENIUM thing. It is connected within the 2T as a half wave rectifier. (the 2T Does NOT have direct lights, it does not have a full wave bridge rectify either). (the 4T does) The GREEN and BLUE ignition [flywheel mag] circuits are totally independent from the two charge/lighting coils which also charge the battery (if you are lucky!) So the engine will run no matter what you do with the charging coils, rectifier, or battery.
You now fit a modern encapsulated (silicon) full wave bridge rectifier, (6) but only use half of it-2 diodes. (ie use it as half wave)The case needs to be bolted to a flat metal surface to get rid of the little bit of heat it might generate (these things can handle 35Amps-the piddly 5A from a Villiers set up)!! The case has no electrical connection, but if you do use the new centre bolt as an earth connection then of course you must have some bare metal for the bolt.
There was an early diagram on this diatribe which was correct. The two AC 'new' rectifier tabs go to the charge coil within the magneto, as they did before. The 'new' rectifier Positive goes to earth. While the left over NEGATIVE terminal is NOT used.
The above is for 2T only, other FB/Villiers can be dealt with but I ask for a circuit diagram for scribbling on when you buy the rectifier.
These generators systems do not have any formal form of regulation, there is hardly enough output in the first place. They will not go to 12V. You do NOT need any regulator at this level. You can get a little more out of the generator if you DO convert to full wave bridge, but you have to remove the one wire from within the generator BEFORE using the 4th rectifier terminal (the circuit becomes as the 4T then.) If you want to be 'clever' and convert to battery/coil ignition you will not go far as the battery will go flat in no time, even if you connect the charge coils for full output all the time.
At this point you can think of fitting two more charge coils in place of the ignition coils in the magneto. But that will mean TWO rectifiers. and you might then run into a regulation problem. You also will still not have enough electricity to run lights for any length of time....get a Honda!
aoservices.co.uk
Al Osborn.

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Re: Electric puzzle for you.

Post  Kim on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:45 am

Hi Al.. Thanks for that but i am now even more confused. scratch I thought i had cracked the setup for the rectifer on my 84 but am now unsure. Normally I would take you up your offer of selling me one and explaining how to wire it but I live in New Zealand (and according to your website you dont use paypal) and I already have a s/s rectifer here, so I was hoping you could just verify what i have, or tell me i'm completely wrong.
Here are the wiring diagram and how I "think" it goes. The rectifer is marked with + (positive) and AC on the terminals indicated.




Regards
Kim scratch scratch scratch
P.S This engine (AMC 25T) uses wipac equipment
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CONFUSED??

Post  aoservices on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 am

Kim wrote: Hi Al.. Thanks for that but i am now even more confused. scratch I thought i had cracked the setup for the rectifer on my 84 but am now unsure. Normally I would take you up your offer of selling me one and explaining how to wire it but I live in New Zealand (and according to your website you dont use paypal) and I already have a s/s rectifer here, so I was hoping you could just verify what i have, or tell me i'm completely wrong.
Here are the wiring diagram and how I "think" it goes. The rectifer is marked with + (positive) and AC on the terminals indicated.




Regards
Kim scratch scratch scratch
P.S This engine (AMC 25T) uses wipac equipment

Well you shouldn't be confused as I was talking about a 2T Yours is NOT it is an AMC 25T and is a single! The diagram on the web is not good enough to work with-bits missing, too poor resolution. If some one can get me a decent copy even via email I will advise accordingly.
A O Services.

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Re: Electric puzzle for you.

Post  Kim on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:52 am





Hi Al. Sorry but splitting it in two is the only way i could post it larger. I hope this is ok.

Regards
Kim
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Full wave Bridge

Post  aoservices on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:11 am

Kim wrote:



Hi Al. Sorry but splitting it in two is the only way i could post it larger. I hope this is ok.

Regards
Kim

This circuit uses the Wipac alternator which is connected for lights switch switching to regulate the 6V charging output. The alternator might give up to 100W as opposed to the feeble 2T output. There is also some regulation done with switching the resistance wire in when on ignition only. (New looms do not have reliable resistance wires or indeed any at all at times. I have these resistors.) The rectifiers is full wave bridge and the system will give 12V. The 2T villiers bears no relation to this circuit with regard to battery charging. So don't be confused, apples are NOT the same as oranges!
Al Osborn.

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Re: Electric puzzle for you.

Post  Kim on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:40 pm

Thank you for all your help Al.
Regards
Kim
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Re: Electric puzzle for you.

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